Breastroke Pullout
I've been wondering about this for a few
months now. The question is why elite breastrokers do not stay
underwater longer off of their turns; I've noticed that they only go
about 8-9 meters. I personally can go about that far off every wall
(and am far from elite, nor do I lose ground in my races). Is it an
efficiency issue? Or is it something no one has really experimented
with?
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Greg Rasmussen MBA •
Speed, as long as you can maintain a faster speed underwater than on top
stay there, the thing is with the rules they way they stand you max
speed by push, hand separation, dolphin kick, pull down, pop up. All of
these need to be connected AT SPEED, I find about 10 meters optimal for
me (except off the dive). I can go 15-17 but not with the same speed.
Andrew Sellers •
Coming from an age group perspective, but one of the things my staff and
I stress is the happy medium. What is our maximum distance with the
maximum speed. Just because you can get to the 15m mark off the wall
doesn't mean it is efficient.
John Pat Bourassa •
Greg and Andrew are absolutely right! Take time. Take time and with a
watch and placing a board on the edge of the pool; determine a ideal
surfacing point for your (each) swimmer.
Andrew Sellers •
John we have colored cones that we place under water. Each swimmer has a
different color. The idea is to break out with the eyes above the cone
and finish that initial stroke with the feet past the cone.
Adam Schapiro •
Thanks for the input so far. I agree that efficiency (speed and
distance) is more important than distance alone. However, I'm just
surprised that no one seems willing/able to go any farther while
free/back/fly swimmers can go 15 meters (or,in the past, further) at
will.
Andrew Sellers •
Adam, you sound like you may not have been a heavy breast stroker in your own experience as a swimmer.
Speaking from my own experience as primarily a breast stroke swimmer, I can assure you it is not an at will thing. Breast stroke has some many mechanical moving parts that something can and will go wrong. In breast stroke timing and strength are everything. Top end breast strokers do more dryland or as much as your top end sprinters.
From my personal experience I could hit the 15m off every wall in the 100 and 200, but it was inefficient for me. I would often in the 200 have a long pullout on the start and the middle 100 with shorter pull outs everywhere else. I did this because I felt I could gain more acceleration/speed into my middle 100 and finishing 25 by doing this. I was still well past the flags but I was in between the 10yd mark and 1/2 half at all times. On a good day I was at 1/2 way on every turn after the start but that is not the way I thought about it.
Teaching/doing a 15m pullout is really only critical off a start for most BR's. finding a happy medium is what is critical for off the turns. I teach my swimmers to try and extend their happy medium a little further on the 200 BR and 400 IM.
I am finding the top end 13 & over boys do better with a shorter more efficient pull out while the girls do better with longer under water. That could also just be the athletes I have currently and worked with in the past.
I have been using weekly to bi-weekly power tower sets to work on power through the breakout and initial speed. This has helped my athletes tremendously and I would highly recommend purchasing one if your club has the money.
Speaking from my own experience as primarily a breast stroke swimmer, I can assure you it is not an at will thing. Breast stroke has some many mechanical moving parts that something can and will go wrong. In breast stroke timing and strength are everything. Top end breast strokers do more dryland or as much as your top end sprinters.
From my personal experience I could hit the 15m off every wall in the 100 and 200, but it was inefficient for me. I would often in the 200 have a long pullout on the start and the middle 100 with shorter pull outs everywhere else. I did this because I felt I could gain more acceleration/speed into my middle 100 and finishing 25 by doing this. I was still well past the flags but I was in between the 10yd mark and 1/2 half at all times. On a good day I was at 1/2 way on every turn after the start but that is not the way I thought about it.
Teaching/doing a 15m pullout is really only critical off a start for most BR's. finding a happy medium is what is critical for off the turns. I teach my swimmers to try and extend their happy medium a little further on the 200 BR and 400 IM.
I am finding the top end 13 & over boys do better with a shorter more efficient pull out while the girls do better with longer under water. That could also just be the athletes I have currently and worked with in the past.
I have been using weekly to bi-weekly power tower sets to work on power through the breakout and initial speed. This has helped my athletes tremendously and I would highly recommend purchasing one if your club has the money.
Matthew Byrne •
Hi All, In australia Brenton Rickard will go up to 20 meters of a dive,
where Christian Springer is a little shorter. I have a 1:00 Breast
stroker and for me it is also in addition to the above the balance of
Hypoxic load by staying underwater to long especially 200. The key is
that the last turn is the best and the athlete has to be in the right
place (mentally and physically) for that last turn, to much effort
underwater until then can sometimes tip them over the edge.
Andrew Sellers •
Matt I absolutely agree. I do a lot of Hypoxic work in general. But I
completely agree that last pull out is the most important one. What is
the right distance for maximum acceleration into the finish.
Matthew Byrne •
No loss of speed. My experience is that swimmers glide to long before
they start the pull out. I do 5, 7 and 10 meter dive/push glides on time
to the head position. This is the raw speed from the dive/turn. I then
time the 10 meter(dive)or 5/7 meter(turn) position during the breast
stroke layout. The time must be a little faster, if it is slower the
layout has to start earlier if it is a lot faster time the layout can
start later. This has helped me to quantify the ideal distance for the
layout.
Andrew Sellers •
Just a verbiage issue but what are you calling the "layout"? We do a
lot of dive and glide in our diving well which is approximately 10
meters by 10 meters. We also do deep turn and pullout work. That
coupled with power tower work is what has helped my swimmers.
We do 5 second break out work from a start. How far can you go from a dive to your first 3 strokes in BR. All other strokes we look at 3 seconds.
We do 5 second break out work from a start. How far can you go from a dive to your first 3 strokes in BR. All other strokes we look at 3 seconds.
Anita K. •
I think it was Bill Sweetenham once told me the ideal time underwater in
the pullout is 5 seconds from the dive to the head popping. We have
always worked on this first and then trying to maximise distance. We
are currently refining the body posture/spine alignment in the final
glide prior to breakout as many swimmers start lifting the head out of
alignment at this point. It results in a shallower angle rising, and
slightly longer underwater. Swimmers sometimes have to adjust how deep
they dive as a result, but they don't lose as much speed as they
breakout.
Brenda Oldfield •
You have to know the swimmers abilities. I have always thought feel for
the water. Maintain speed and distance by how the water feels. New
swimmers don't have that but swimmers who have been in the water can
make a judgement of what the water feels like as they slow down. Each
swimmer is different coach to the swimmers abilities and not to the
general population. Good technique builds speed and confidence.
Mircea Olaru •
unfortuanetly I repeat: correctly though I've always had a little
confidence in rowing arms Breastroke; always see less important than
rowing legs - seemed unavoidable inequality between the two movements
efficiency [arms, legs] now feel that this equality can be achieved and I
think with success, my question is [I do not know exactly how to swim
now worldwide ...] how many breastrokers have noticed and apply new
movement?
Steve Nickalls •
Time the pull out and distances, easy way to sort that one out. Don't
forget oxygen debt to, if you go to far holding your breath you may come
up slightly more 'tired' than alittle earlier, something else that need
working on and working out. Everybody is individual
Andrew Sellers •
Think about the surface area you present in the breas stroke pullout.
You require more muscle, therefore more oxygen. Free/back and fly have
the advantage of the streamline and movements that have high outputs
with low inputs.
Mircea Olaru •
In my opinion:
All these attempts presented will disappear soon enough, when FINA / TSC will allow regular as Breastroke and Dolfin turn to be made, like the Freestyle and Backstroke by rolling, without further touching the wall palms etc.
FINA has a duty to allow same regulation changes refer to all 4 strokes [by Google translate]
have a nice day.....
All these attempts presented will disappear soon enough, when FINA / TSC will allow regular as Breastroke and Dolfin turn to be made, like the Freestyle and Backstroke by rolling, without further touching the wall palms etc.
FINA has a duty to allow same regulation changes refer to all 4 strokes [by Google translate]
have a nice day.....
Andrew Sellers •
FINA threw out that measure at their last general meeting. Said the
argument for the rule change was invalid. That rule change drastically
changes how breast stroke would have been swam.
Mircea Olaru •
Mircea Olaru • I know what was discussed at Barcelona in TSC ... but you
wonder if it would not be fair play if at all styles could turn without
touching the wall ..., this is speculation not a fact!
Do not worry too much - Breastroke has always been subject to attempts to change ... but eventually all remained Breastroke [ for ex.: 1927, German Rademacher began to pull his arms out of the water, releasing no idea of the future style nr. 4 = Butterfly ... and in 1935 Alfred Sieg swam the first time under the supervision of coach David Armbruster = Dolfin // 1.00,2/100 yd ...] have a happy day ....
Do not worry too much - Breastroke has always been subject to attempts to change ... but eventually all remained Breastroke [ for ex.: 1927, German Rademacher began to pull his arms out of the water, releasing no idea of the future style nr. 4 = Butterfly ... and in 1935 Alfred Sieg swam the first time under the supervision of coach David Armbruster = Dolfin // 1.00,2/100 yd ...] have a happy day ....
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